They learn from their overseas-grown pinoys and foreign teammates, skills and aggressive play, like talent exchange, which is good for player development and building of locals That's what AFC's 3+1 rule stands for To give locals from respective clubs a chance in international scene Anyways players whether local or foreign, earn playing time by playing hard, which they did last night, not because of being an overseas grown
You're wrong Anonymous9 March 2016 at 09:54 about saying "players whether local or foreign, earn playing time by playing hard, which they did last night, not because of being an overseas grown." Don't be hypocrite about it because we are not blind. We all know coaches prefer bigger and foreign born ones because of their breeding but we locals looked at it as a discrimination. Only a few teams are fielding in homegrowns and we believe in them. Kaya FC is more of a Pinoy team than Ceres who lost their pride when they loaned out half of their roster to other clubs just because theyre homegrowns and not believing in their talents . They prefer mestizos but the masses are not enamored with it only the few fil foreign obsessed fans are loving it due to their SLAVE Mentality. Ceres had only Michael Casas to be proud of as theirs and the rest are rejects from different clubs in Europe and America only to come here and rub the cash and playing time of our homegrowns. That's why I respected KayaFC more than Ceres for fielding in 4- 5 homegrown players and product of Philippine Football and not from Europe and AMerica..
Players develop their own skills, which was good for Kaya's former youth players now part of the main roster No development programs should follow other countries' routines and standards, as time lets them improve too it's like playing catch up That's enough Kaya bloodline nazi It's time you should ask a UFL coach as to why they do 'prefer' foreign-grown talents, remember without them locals will still be lagging behind other Asian clubs Football was a dead sport in the PHI for 80 yrs Don't voice your rants online just go ask a coach yourself
So bitter against ceres and global Did they do anything wrong to your favorite club? Was it that they were able to amass more fans than kaya in a short span of time? Was it because of foreign grown pinoys in their roster?
what do you mean by "masses are not enamored" of fil-foreign laden teams but "only a few fans"? ceres fans dwarf the number of kaya fans ever! anemic attendance for an international game of the oldest football club in the country... pathetic show of support... voids your argument that the masses don't support clubs w/ more foreign-born pinoys.
Football fanatics talaga ang taga Negros lalo na sa Bacolod kaya normal yung maraming tao talaga ang manonood at good marketing din ang ginawa ng Ceres pero take note libre ang ticket na yun para sa mga fans at namimigay pa ng libre T-shirt ang mga Yanson. Cguro kung may bayad yung game sa Panaad hindi ganun karami ang tao sa stadium dahil wla naman silang i cheer masyado sa mga players nila dahil si Casas lng mag isa ang nasa starting line up.
ceres fans in bacolod are not fickle minded like you... we supported our team when it was all local players and continued supporting through line-up changes... like all professional football team elsewhere fans support their team irregardless the make-up of the line-up. don't make false assumption that since because only casas is in the starting line-up, ceres will only get little support from their fans.
You're the one who Suck big time as you always adore Foreign Breed reject players and have that Alipin mentality. Always a Slave to Foreign Bloods or maybe having a Man Crush to all Mestizos- you traitor to your own Kababayan- Ikaw ang Traidor at mas lalong ikaw ang hindi marunong maglaro cause you always rely on 'Foreign Beauties' my Friend and you fsiled and distrust your own!!!
Theoretically, if foreign born players are full Filipinos which are "rejects" of European football with Filipino accents. Are they still foreign players for you. How about full foreign players, especially Africans, and of non-European descent who starts their career here first, as part of the youth team of local clubs, are they not homegrown? Can we be proud of them too. Just a question, an unrelated to any of these previous posters, especially the one who was quick to assume that you are a disgruntled local.
Personally, the game of football is all about. What makes people come to the PBA, despite presence of fil-ams, and the teams representing corporations rather than localities. (Its the game of basketball, Filipinos claim it as their own, and not just any American game). If football can come up with this. Where each people know the technicals of football and to enjoy the sports themselves. The PFF is lacking with these kind of efforts, that's why football remains an exclusive sports here especially in Luzon.
I understand your concern though, I don't like football to be a sport where people just come for the faces like in pageants or even women's volleyball (pardon to the players, but the way the sport is being marketed as a sport you watch where pretty girls play more than the sport itself). Speaking of which as a sports fan in general, It would also be better, if the gender cap in sports is narrowed. Japan for example is good in both women's and men's football. It would be great if more women take up football too iregardless if you look like a model or a tomboyish girl with a boyish haircut as long as you have the skill. Women's basketball is gaining ground on this.
You're the one who sucks because of your "Slave Mentality" to foreign bloods. Pasilan and Panhay was good and a "product of La Salle Bacolod School then why are they on the bench? haven't you remembered their heroics before? Then why your Boss Yanson keeps on buying those Fil-Fors? Anyway, Ceres FC had no grassroots structure , no U8, U10, U12, U14 and U16 but yes, they have a Ceres Cup Festival a seven -aside affair every summer and yes they have U18- Mens Open due to University of St La Salle varsity. Now you be the judge if it is really a structured club or a pure Men's Open Club only to be viewed as number one in the country but empty in the inside?
Anonymous11 March 2016 at 10:37 you're a fan who really suck where you always make fan of a local players name. How really good are you in Football anyway? You're just a fan and not really a player in your younger days or maybe you hated player from the province cause they are so good and that's why you redirect your bitterness to them and praise the half breeds for justice but what if you will have a son, a brother, relative someday and they'll be replaced by fil fors ? Would you swallow the pill?
Negrosanon here.. Football fan since i was a kid.. Anyway, its true that Ceres doesnt have their own grassroots program nor an academy. The club is solely based on a Mens Open category, which was the NOFA team in their startup days. But they dont have a need for a grassroots program nor an academy though since we Negrenses have an excellent network of grassroots programs, be it from the school sector or the private sector. What Ceres does is bankroll a tournament for the teams to showcase their talents and thats where they get first dibs in handpicking talents. Just like what Nike Academy does.
It is Ceres's fault that other clubs like kaya don't have 'enough money' to buy quality players? Obviously you kaya bloodline nazi don't understand how football rosters work Clubs buy and sell their players, it is not their obligation or duty to raise them from youth level And why is grassroots Ceres's 'problem' you say? It wasn't the case from the very start They can just pick youngsters from high schools and colleges across Negros to be part of future Ceres lineup once the fil fors duties are over They know they'll have a wide pool of potentials to choose from To market a club means for it to be successful in short term therefore increasing the interests among Negrense lads to kick the ball That's what you call INVESTMENT not DEPRIVATION of local talent as you kaya bloodline nazi accuse us
Hopefully in the future all ufl clubs will have their own youth academies like clubs in europe. Having youth academies will endear clubs to the communities and encourage a loyal fanbase and not the fake superficial manila fans based on goodlooks. Real local support because of club involvement in their communities. I hope that is the plan. I know right now it is way too early but eventually we go there and have real love of football.
Clubs doesn't have to hire players exclusively from their hometown. This is true for many clubs around the world, even outside Europe. There is no stopping Negrense players to play for Kaya or any other clubs.
So let Ceres be, if that's is the brand image they want to maintain at the moment. Time will tell if Ceres' approach branded as "band-aid solution" by critics will be detrimental on the long run.
@10:36 yes, it would be great. If Division 2, would be back, if the richer clubs have receive enough finance, they can send a B team, to give players a chance. The problem though is historically Div2 is even more poorly marketed, so I guess they have less incentive, even if they can.
As a fan from Manila, I can agree with this. I hope that there would be real appreciation for the game, where it doesn't matter whether the player is mestizo or "local-looking".
I guess, the coaches are tempted to hire let's say good looking players to garner more audience. I can see there is some kind of "boyband" effect going on, in Manila games, it sometimes resembles a concert with screeching fan girls. Which understandably turns off fans, giving them ideas that all-fil foreigners and are hired for their looks (although some are really do, while some earned their place).
Also the next national league should avoid the temptation of clubs named after corporations and must have a designated hometown or locality. We want corporate dealings by clubs to be flexible and players would less likely to relate to a corporate products.
As mentioned by another commentator, banking on players, merely for their looks or highlighting their handsomeness is a double edged sword. It might bring in audience but it may be damaging to the overall image of a sport. This is what I see in women's volleyball right now, we can't go against even Southeast Asia regional powers in that sports. In any sport, the skills of a player should be highlighted or else, the sport will be a media milking cow at best.
You are stupid! Ceres is the pride of negros! We negrense support the TEAM irregardless the make-up of the line up. I think you are just jealous of ceres, that despite being only a new club, they have achieve more, and have amass more fans thousands times over than you favorite team.
Jealous kaagad dahil binanatan ko ang Ceres? Oh come on! Nagpahiwatig lng ako ng opinion na hindi maganda yung instant success ang hinahanap kaagad ng isang club dahil baka instant downfall din ang kalalabasan nito sa huli. Mabuti pa si Anonymous11 March 2016 at 10:36 nakakaintindi tsaka wag nyo sabihin na Kaya FC fan ako dahil hindi ko sila type ang sinasabi ko lng ay bilib ako ng konti sa kanila dahil nag field in sila ng homegrown sa AFC Cup which is an international o tournament sa ASEAN. Kailan ba matuto ang ibang team? Kailan ba sila mag pasok ng 4-5 homegrown players din sa ganyang event? Proud ba kayo na pinanalo ng Ceres ang AFC Cup with almost Fil Forein line up against the 9 homegrowns of Bangladesh or Maldives team? Ang Ceres lng yata ang wlang youth teams if AFC is being followed hindi talaga tatangapin sila dahil wla silang academy. Sino ba yung nagsasabi na may academy ang Ceres? Sabihin nyo nga dito kung meron? Dahil yung sa manila na sumali sa UFL is affiliated lng dapat bacolod based sila una dahil taga doon yung senior team nila. Present lng kasi tinitingnan nyo mga tol , dapat nasa future utak nyo kung gusto natin maging successful ang football sa Pinas, We should target the madlang people hindi yung mga english speaking fan dahil konti lng sila manonood.Yung taga Visayas especially bacolod saludo ako dyan pero pag may bayad na ang laro at wla sila masyadong kakilala o relative nandyan kahit na matangos ilong ng player nyo konti pa rin ang manonood at karamihan sa TV nlng. We should be reminded that football is for everyone but more on the 'Masa.' Kaya nga cguro tinatawanan tayo ng China dahil hind tayo united panay saludo tayo sa mga taga ibang bansa instead na ipuri ang sariling taga dito.
Hoy tonto ako si anonymous 1036. Sinabi ko yun dahil sinusuportahan ko ceres at current line up nila ngayon. Kaya nga sana sa hinaharap msy homegrown na sila na magmumula sa train uh ng academy nila.
Ang tanong ay may training academy pa ang bawat club ss ufl?
Kaya sana isipin nila yan ngayon pa lang. Kaya walang mahusay na local ay dahil walang seryosong training mula pagkabata. Hindi uubra ang favouritism na gusto mo mangyari.
Ikaw ang tonto , gago at tikalon na tao. Maglibot ka sa buong Pilipinas at sabihin mo na wlang magaling na local na bata ngayon. Puro ka lng TV cguro eh..
inggit ka ba sa ceres na maraming nanunuod ng games nila? yung team mo nilalangaw ang laro dahil walang fans pumupunta... baka kaunti lamang ang mga fans.. kahit na yung majority ng fans nila ay sa visayas.... mas marami pa rin taga supporta nila present in every game in manila than the other teams.
kahit i-free tickets ng ibang ufl teams sa manila, lalangawin pa din yan. kakaunti lng kasi ang fans nila... remember ufl at some point were once free admission... with no fans support to show for it. only the top teams have fans, but still very little... johnny echoed the same observation in usapangfootball boards...
after victorious tuesday night by the 2 filipino clubs, no local sport news like sportsdesk and the score made report on it. and dont know about the other.
I salute you Kaya FC!!! You manage to field in 5 homegrown players of the Philippine Football in the AFC Cup. Thank you in believing them...
ReplyDeleteThey learn from their overseas-grown pinoys and foreign teammates, skills and aggressive play, like talent exchange, which is good for player development and building of locals
DeleteThat's what AFC's 3+1 rule stands for
To give locals from respective clubs a chance in international scene
Anyways players whether local or foreign, earn playing time by playing hard, which they did last night, not because of being an overseas grown
This is a good result nevertheless by Kaya. Also this gives those who are fans of homegrown players someone to root for.
DeleteThat's good. Ceres and Global preference for foreign players and overseas Filipino understandably may be a turn off for some. But that's just normal.
Respect for Kaya.
You're wrong Anonymous9 March 2016 at 09:54 about saying "players whether local or foreign, earn playing time by playing hard, which they did last night, not because of being an overseas grown." Don't be hypocrite about it because we are not blind. We all know coaches prefer bigger and foreign born ones because of their breeding but we locals looked at it as a discrimination. Only a few teams are fielding in homegrowns and we believe in them. Kaya FC is more of a Pinoy team than Ceres who lost their pride when they loaned out half of their roster to other clubs just because theyre homegrowns and not believing in their talents . They prefer mestizos but the masses are not enamored with it only the few fil foreign obsessed fans are loving it due to their SLAVE Mentality. Ceres had only Michael Casas to be proud of as theirs and the rest are rejects from different clubs in Europe and America only to come here and rub the cash and playing time of our homegrowns. That's why I respected KayaFC more than Ceres for fielding in 4- 5 homegrown players and product of Philippine Football and not from Europe and AMerica..
ReplyDeleteDon't forget sparks..
DeletePlayers develop their own skills, which was good for Kaya's former youth players now part of the main roster
DeleteNo development programs should follow other countries' routines and standards, as time lets them improve too it's like playing catch up
That's enough Kaya bloodline nazi
It's time you should ask a UFL coach as to why they do 'prefer' foreign-grown talents, remember without them locals will still be lagging behind other Asian clubs
Football was a dead sport in the PHI for 80 yrs
Don't voice your rants online just go ask a coach yourself
So bitter against ceres and global
DeleteDid they do anything wrong to your favorite club?
Was it that they were able to amass more fans than kaya in a short span of time?
Was it because of foreign grown pinoys in their roster?
what do you mean by "masses are not enamored" of fil-foreign laden teams but "only a few fans"? ceres fans dwarf the number of kaya fans ever! anemic attendance for an international game of the oldest football club in the country... pathetic show of support... voids your argument that the masses don't support clubs w/ more foreign-born pinoys.
DeleteFootball fanatics talaga ang taga Negros lalo na sa Bacolod kaya normal yung maraming tao talaga ang manonood at good marketing din ang ginawa ng Ceres pero take note libre ang ticket na yun para sa mga fans at namimigay pa ng libre T-shirt ang mga Yanson. Cguro kung may bayad yung game sa Panaad hindi ganun karami ang tao sa stadium dahil wla naman silang i cheer masyado sa mga players nila dahil si Casas lng mag isa ang nasa starting line up.
Deleteceres fans in bacolod are not fickle minded like you... we supported our team when it was all local players and continued supporting through line-up changes... like all professional football team elsewhere fans support their team irregardless the make-up of the line-up. don't make false assumption that since because only casas is in the starting line-up, ceres will only get little support from their fans.
DeleteAnother disgruntled local player bitching and whining here. It wont get you anywhere with that attitude.
ReplyDeleteAnd you suck that is why you get overlooked. Just live with it.
You're the one who Suck big time as you always adore Foreign Breed reject players and have that Alipin mentality. Always a Slave to Foreign Bloods or maybe having a Man Crush to all Mestizos- you traitor to your own Kababayan- Ikaw ang Traidor at mas lalong ikaw ang hindi marunong maglaro cause you always rely on 'Foreign Beauties' my Friend and you fsiled and distrust your own!!!
ReplyDeleteTheoretically, if foreign born players are full Filipinos which are "rejects" of European football with Filipino accents. Are they still foreign players for you. How about full foreign players, especially Africans, and of non-European descent who starts their career here first, as part of the youth team of local clubs, are they not homegrown? Can we be proud of them too. Just a question, an unrelated to any of these previous posters, especially the one who was quick to assume that you are a disgruntled local.
DeletePersonally, the game of football is all about. What makes people come to the PBA, despite presence of fil-ams, and the teams representing corporations rather than localities. (Its the game of basketball, Filipinos claim it as their own, and not just any American game). If football can come up with this. Where each people know the technicals of football and to enjoy the sports themselves. The PFF is lacking with these kind of efforts, that's why football remains an exclusive sports here especially in Luzon.
I understand your concern though, I don't like football to be a sport where people just come for the faces like in pageants or even women's volleyball (pardon to the players, but the way the sport is being marketed as a sport you watch where pretty girls play more than the sport itself). Speaking of which as a sports fan in general, It would also be better, if the gender cap in sports is narrowed. Japan for example is good in both women's and men's football. It would be great if more women take up football too iregardless if you look like a model or a tomboyish girl with a boyish haircut as long as you have the skill. Women's basketball is gaining ground on this.
Lol, that became quickly went of topic.
You suck. If you are as good as you claim to be then no matter how many foreign players come here you will always make the first team.
DeleteBut reality bites and you suck my friend.
You're the one who sucks because of your "Slave Mentality" to foreign bloods. Pasilan and Panhay was good and a "product of La Salle Bacolod School then why are they on the bench? haven't you remembered their heroics before? Then why your Boss Yanson keeps on buying those Fil-Fors? Anyway, Ceres FC had no grassroots structure , no U8, U10, U12, U14 and U16 but yes, they have a Ceres Cup Festival a seven -aside affair every summer and yes they have U18- Mens Open due to University of St La Salle varsity. Now you be the judge if it is really a structured club or a pure Men's Open Club only to be viewed as number one in the country but empty in the inside?
DeletePasilan makes me scream pastilan each time he does something stupid. What about them anyway? Are they your cousins?
DeleteAnonymous11 March 2016 at 10:37 you're a fan who really suck where you always make fan of a local players name. How really good are you in Football anyway? You're just a fan and not really a player in your younger days or maybe you hated player from the province cause they are so good and that's why you redirect your bitterness to them and praise the half breeds for justice but what if you will have a son, a brother, relative someday and they'll be replaced by fil fors ? Would you swallow the pill?
DeleteNegrosanon here.. Football fan since i was a kid.. Anyway, its true that Ceres doesnt have their own grassroots program nor an academy. The club is solely based on a Mens Open category, which was the NOFA team in their startup days. But they dont have a need for a grassroots program nor an academy though since we Negrenses have an excellent network of grassroots programs, be it from the school sector or the private sector. What Ceres does is bankroll a tournament for the teams to showcase their talents and thats where they get first dibs in handpicking talents. Just like what Nike Academy does.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteCeres -the Pride of Negros? B.S. !!! You only have casas to be proud of!!! And the rest is "Money can Buy" nothing more ...
ReplyDeleteIt is Ceres's fault that other clubs like kaya don't have 'enough money' to buy quality players?
DeleteObviously you kaya bloodline nazi don't understand how football rosters work
Clubs buy and sell their players, it is not their obligation or duty to raise them from youth level
And why is grassroots Ceres's 'problem' you say?
It wasn't the case from the very start
They can just pick youngsters from high schools and colleges across Negros to be part of future Ceres lineup once the fil fors duties are over
They know they'll have a wide pool of potentials to choose from
To market a club means for it to be successful in short term therefore increasing the interests among Negrense lads to kick the ball
That's what you call INVESTMENT not DEPRIVATION of local talent as you kaya bloodline nazi accuse us
Hopefully in the future all ufl clubs will have their own youth academies like clubs in europe. Having youth academies will endear clubs to the communities and encourage a loyal fanbase and not the fake superficial manila fans based on goodlooks. Real local support because of club involvement in their communities. I hope that is the plan. I know right now it is way too early but eventually we go there and have real love of football.
DeleteClubs doesn't have to hire players exclusively from their hometown. This is true for many clubs around the world, even outside Europe. There is no stopping Negrense players to play for Kaya or any other clubs.
DeleteSo let Ceres be, if that's is the brand image they want to maintain at the moment. Time will tell if Ceres' approach branded as "band-aid solution" by critics will be detrimental on the long run.
Kaya is a success story at the moment I can say.
@10:36 yes, it would be great. If Division 2, would be back, if the richer clubs have receive enough finance, they can send a B team, to give players a chance. The problem though is historically Div2 is even more poorly marketed, so I guess they have less incentive, even if they can.
DeleteAs a fan from Manila, I can agree with this. I hope that there would be real appreciation for the game, where it doesn't matter whether the player is mestizo or "local-looking".
I guess, the coaches are tempted to hire let's say good looking players to garner more audience. I can see there is some kind of "boyband" effect going on, in Manila games, it sometimes resembles a concert with screeching fan girls. Which understandably turns off fans, giving them ideas that all-fil foreigners and are hired for their looks (although some are really do, while some earned their place).
Also the next national league should avoid the temptation of clubs named after corporations and must have a designated hometown or locality. We want corporate dealings by clubs to be flexible and players would less likely to relate to a corporate products.
As mentioned by another commentator, banking on players, merely for their looks or highlighting their handsomeness is a double edged sword. It might bring in audience but it may be damaging to the overall image of a sport. This is what I see in women's volleyball right now, we can't go against even Southeast Asia regional powers in that sports. In any sport, the skills of a player should be highlighted or else, the sport will be a media milking cow at best.
DeleteYou are stupid! Ceres is the pride of negros! We negrense support the TEAM irregardless the make-up of the line up. I think you are just jealous of ceres, that despite being only a new club, they have achieve more, and have amass more fans thousands times over than you favorite team.
DeleteJealous kaagad dahil binanatan ko ang Ceres? Oh come on! Nagpahiwatig lng ako ng opinion na hindi maganda yung instant success ang hinahanap kaagad ng isang club dahil baka instant downfall din ang kalalabasan nito sa huli. Mabuti pa si Anonymous11 March 2016 at 10:36 nakakaintindi tsaka wag nyo sabihin na Kaya FC fan ako dahil hindi ko sila type ang sinasabi ko lng ay bilib ako ng konti sa kanila dahil nag field in sila ng homegrown sa AFC Cup which is an international o tournament sa ASEAN. Kailan ba matuto ang ibang team? Kailan ba sila mag pasok ng 4-5 homegrown players din sa ganyang event? Proud ba kayo na pinanalo ng Ceres ang AFC Cup with almost Fil Forein line up against the 9 homegrowns of Bangladesh or Maldives team? Ang Ceres lng yata ang wlang youth teams if AFC is being followed hindi talaga tatangapin sila dahil wla silang academy. Sino ba yung nagsasabi na may academy ang Ceres? Sabihin nyo nga dito kung meron? Dahil yung sa manila na sumali sa UFL is affiliated lng dapat bacolod based sila una dahil taga doon yung senior team nila. Present lng kasi tinitingnan nyo mga tol , dapat nasa future utak nyo kung gusto natin maging successful ang football sa Pinas, We should target the madlang people hindi yung mga english speaking fan dahil konti lng sila manonood.Yung taga Visayas especially bacolod saludo ako dyan pero pag may bayad na ang laro at wla sila masyadong kakilala o relative nandyan kahit na matangos ilong ng player nyo konti pa rin ang manonood at karamihan sa TV nlng. We should be reminded that football is for everyone but more on the 'Masa.' Kaya nga cguro tinatawanan tayo ng China dahil hind tayo united panay saludo tayo sa mga taga ibang bansa instead na ipuri ang sariling taga dito.
ReplyDeleteHoy tonto ako si anonymous 1036. Sinabi ko yun dahil sinusuportahan ko ceres at current line up nila ngayon. Kaya nga sana sa hinaharap msy homegrown na sila na magmumula sa train uh ng academy nila.
DeleteAng tanong ay may training academy pa ang bawat club ss ufl?
Kaya sana isipin nila yan ngayon pa lang. Kaya walang mahusay na local ay dahil walang seryosong training mula pagkabata. Hindi uubra ang favouritism na gusto mo mangyari.
Ikaw ang tonto , gago at tikalon na tao. Maglibot ka sa buong Pilipinas at sabihin mo na wlang magaling na local na bata ngayon. Puro ka lng TV cguro eh..
DeleteCeres maraming fans? hakot naman yung karamihan at free ticket di ba taga Pinoy Football at Football Tournament dyan sa FB?
ReplyDeleteinggit ka ba sa ceres na maraming nanunuod ng games nila? yung team mo nilalangaw ang laro dahil walang fans pumupunta... baka kaunti lamang ang mga fans.. kahit na yung majority ng fans nila ay sa visayas.... mas marami pa rin taga supporta nila present in every game in manila than the other teams.
Deletekahit i-free tickets ng ibang ufl teams sa manila, lalangawin pa din yan. kakaunti lng kasi ang fans nila... remember ufl at some point were once free admission... with no fans support to show for it. only the top teams have fans, but still very little... johnny echoed the same observation in usapangfootball boards...
Deleteafter victorious tuesday night by the 2 filipino clubs, no local sport news like sportsdesk and the score made report on it. and dont know about the other.
ReplyDelete